What a cheese? What cheese? More grammar, yay!

[novin_ha]

I am being taught about the articles. And a problem arose.

Imagine a situation of being given a French cheese you despise. You look at it and exclaim (rudely):

a) What an awaful cheese!

or perhaps,

b) What awful cheese!

So that's fairly straighforward for me. I'd say a).

But is it even possible to say "What awful cheese," not as a question? Just to express my opinion? Or will there always be an 'a', for it's a 'what a' expression?

My teacher says it's possible to say 'what awful cheese' and I have my doubts, but am not sure.

Help please please please?

I think articles is my least favourite thing in English grammar.

I am going to see GoF in 3.5 hours.

Yay.

Comments

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

Yes you can say what awful cheese. In fact I would say what awful cheese and not what an awful cheese.

Damned if I know why though.

Ok, so thinking about it... I'd saw what awful milk, not what an awful milk, but I'd say what an awful cake (though I could say what awful cake). I think cheese and milk are slightly plural. It might be to do with cheese coming from the Old English.

It would be Do you want some cheese? not Do you want a cheese?

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

Ha! So perhaps it's about countables/uncountables!

But in the first case wouldn't it be possible to say "Wat an awful cheese" if I wanted to show that's this particular slice of cheese that I find disgusting?

And do you say 'I need knife and fork' or 'a knife and fork'?

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

That could be it. Cheese is uncountable, and a piece of cheese is countable. English isn't very rational you know; it isn't supposed to make sense.

It would be possible. It's just not wrong to not use an 'an'.

The latter.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much.

I don't trust my coursebooks any more, there are dozens of mistakes in them.

[bufo-viridis.livejournal.com]

English isn't very rational you know; it isn't supposed to make sense.

Find me a language which is rational and makes sense...

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

Ooh, esperanto.

I think English is a little more complex than some languages ;-) Irregular verbs seem to outweigh regular ones.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

That's only because a Pole invented it.

Or was it a Polish Jew? Anyway, definitely not a Russian, as one of my English Coursebooks stated.

[aphrodeia.livejournal.com]

English is a bitch, but thank whomever that we don't have gendered nouns.

Whew. :D

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

Nouns are not worst. You could have our verbs ;) And milion other things that even we, native speakers don't understand or know how to use.

[bufo-viridis.livejournal.com]

Well, esperanto, possibly yes, but that's artificial language: some other artificial languages may also be rather logical. But they're not much used ;)

I think English is a little more complex than some languages ;-)

Try any Slavic language and you'll change your mind about English being "more complex". Won't take you long :D

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

Yes - because we don't have any regular words ;)

What was that quote again? "Remember pupils, in each language the most difficult part is learning about the verbs. And in Polish it's twice as difficult because they are divided into 'finished' and 'unfinished'."

Polish is so cute :D

[aphrodeia.livejournal.com]

If you were talking about a slice of cheese, you would specify: What an awful slice of cheese!

Or if you're being specific about a type of cheese, you could say: Edam is an awful cheese!

But if you're talking about some block of cheese that's gone bad in your fridge, you'd say: What awful cheese!

(No, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, but this is how I've heard it used. It's almost always used without 'an' before it.)

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

At first they teach you to use articles and the they tell you about the million places that go without it.

I do think it's an awful invention of yours, an article.

And you are helpful. I ask about things concerning grammar on my LJ and then I get the best score in the first test - I'm sure that's no coincidence :D

[averygoodun.livejournal.com]

It's all about formality. I don't know Polish, but in French there are two different types of speech (I'm generalizing a whole lot here based on two years of high school French taken ten years ago): formal and informal. For example, you would never go up to a stranger and address them as 'tu' (informal 'you'). You'd address them as 'vous'. In English, there aren't two distinct levels of formality (anymore), but lots of levels of informality. (BTW: Articles are hard. Very hard. Their use is one of the clear indicators of whether a speaker is foreign or native.)

There's also a matter of quantity. For example, is it just one awful cheese that's brought out, or are there several that are awful? "What awful cheese" could indicate a variety of cheese, and in that case, the article is definitely left out to signify the plural. If there are several varieties of cheese on the board, but you only dislike one, then the article is required as a clarifier (usually combined with a gesture, such as pointing at the offending item) because without the article you are condemning the entire board as bad.

"What an awful cheese" is technically correct, but it is slightly stilted because it is so formal. "What awful cheese" is technically incorrect, but is more accurate to common usage, which therefore makes it correct. Confused yet? I guess what I'm saying here is that "what an awful cheese" sounds much snootier than "what awful cheese." However, I personally would just avoid the issue altogether and not bother with the "what" phrasing at all. For instance: "That's awful cheese," sounds better and is both technically and practically correct, without being overly formal. "That's an awful cheese," is also correct and even more specific. (But it's still rude.)

On top of that, rules for speech are different from the rules of writing. Writing requires a much higher level of formality than speaking does. Speaking you can always fudge a little here and there. That's what dialects are, basically, just exaggerrated and community-wide fudging.

But, remember that English is a difficult language because any and all rules can be broken, and are. (Not a lot of help, am I?)

So basically, your teacher is correct. It is possible. But you're correct if you think it doesn't sound right. It isn't a construct most native speakers would use.

Okay, finished blathering now.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

You are very, very helpful, actually.

And I am so glad I am in love with English language, otherwise I'd go and hang myself. Oh, English :D What have I done?

English is great. And shame on those who claim it easy.